Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
dave-gnfnr2k

Duff interview

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, magisme said:

You are.

I don’t actually think so in terms of definitions. 

 

But Axl could have been refering to himself in the verses. 

 

But in a way the whole thing could be true Third person because there’s 3 characters. It’s just in the song Axl does say who is talking. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wasted said:

I don’t actually think so in terms of definitions. 

 

But Axl could have been refering to himself in the verses. 

 

But in a way the whole thing could be true Third person because there’s 3 characters. It’s just in the song Axl does say who is talking. 

No. You're completely misunderstanding the distinction between these voices. Maybe I'll explain tomorrow when I have more energy.

 

It doesn't matter whether Axl was referring to himself or a character. It is first and second person, exactly as I said, objectively and by definition.

 

Signed,

English Teacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, magisme said:

No. You're completely misunderstanding the distinction between these voices. Maybe I'll explain tomorrow when I have more energy.

 

It doesn't matter whether Axl was referring to himself or a character. It is first and second person, exactly as I said, objectively and by definition.

 

Signed,

English Teacher

No, you’re right it’s more shifting perspectives than 3rd person.

 

But it’s not a story, it’s lyrics. The I said or He said are omitted because it’s song or script. 

 

I think Axl used a first person character probably based on personal experience in the way a writer would use Third person. In a story or script it would have been written He said “Police...” 

If he’s writing dialogue does that change it? 

 

In the song it comes off more Axl writing letters to himself. Or even the chorus attacking the same people the verses do. 

 

I understand what you are saying. But I’m still confused. Objectively based on the words on the page you are right. There’s just a grey area bevause it’s a song trying to be a movie. 

 

I think what Duff/interview are saying is the verses are the racist talking, so it would be preceded by a The racist said. Then the chorus would have a Axl said. So it’s like cutting dialogue out of a script. Or it could all be from a racist’s pov, verse and chorus. Then it should have a The racist said at the top of the song. It’s maybe inferred that the narrator is the singer. 

 

But why write that song. You need the rejection of the chorus. 

 

It’s a bit like Duff’s Parkland song, just putting this out there. Here’s an example of something I think might be bad. But I think OIAM rejects the verses. Whether it’s 1st or 3rd. 

 

 

Edited by wasted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, wasted said:

No, you’re right it’s more shifting perspectives than 3rd person.

 

But it’s not a story, it’s lyrics. The I said or He said are omitted. 

 

I think Axl used a first person character probably based on personal experience in the way a writer would use Third person. In a story or script it would have been written He said “Police...” 

If he’s writing dialogue does that change it? 

 

In the song it comes off more Axl writing letters to himself. Or even the chorus attacking the same people the verses do. 

 

I understand what you are saying. But I’m still confused. 

If he wrote, "Police and niggers, get out of my way" it's first person.

 

If he wrote "Police and niggers, get out of my way," he said.... it's third person, unless the narrator is a character in the story too and not just the narrator, in which case it would remain first person.

 

If he wrote, "You're one in a million" and it's just a narrator saying "you" it's second person.

 

"You're one in a million," he said. = third person

 

"I said to him, 'you're one in a million.'" = first person

 

Third person means that the narrator is not a character in the story/song aside from narrating. He is an outside voice. He might be omniscient or he might have special insight into one main character - doesn't matter - if the narrator is not a character who is part of the action, it is third person. If the narrator speaks as a character in the action, it is first person. This is why your Bateman example doesn't work as third person. He narrates as Bateman, a character in the movie, therefore it's first person. Liotta in Goodfellas too.

 

I'm not making a moral judgment on Axl by saying it's first person. Plenty of repugnant characters are presented in first person. It doesn't mean he agrees with what the first person character says or does, but it does make it easy for the listener to think that the character is Axl himself. Lyrics tend to be first person, so we tend to assume that the writer is the character, which is not necessarily the case. Third person songs are rarer. All Along The Watchtower would be one if memory serves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, magisme said:

If he wrote, "Police and niggers, get out of my way" it's first person.

 

If he wrote "Police and niggers, get out of my way," he said.... it's third person, unless the narrator is a character in the story too and not just the narrator, in which case it would remain first person.

 

If he wrote, "You're one in a million" and it's just a narrator saying "you" it's second person.

 

"You're one in a million," he said. = third person

 

"I said to him, 'you're one in a million.'" = first person

 

Third person means that the narrator is not a character in the story/song aside from narrating. He is an outside voice. He might be omniscient or he might have special insight into one main character - doesn't matter - if the narrator is not a character who is part of the action, it is third person. If the narrator speaks as a character in the action, it is first person. This is why your Bateman example doesn't work as third person. He narrates as Bateman, a character in the movie, therefore it's first person. Liotta in Goodfellas too.

 

I'm not making a moral judgment on Axl by saying it's first person. Plenty of repugnant characters are presented in first person. It doesn't mean he agrees with what the first person character says or does, but it does make it easy for the listener to think that the character is Axl himself. Lyrics tend to be first person, so we tend to assume that the writer is the character, which is not necessarily the case. Third person songs are rarer. All Along The Watchtower would be one if memory serves.

I agree the Patrick Bateman example is wrong. 

 

I think Duff/interviewer are saying the Racist said or he said are ommitted because it’s a song. It’s a song trying to be a movie. 

 

That’s why the song was taken the wrong way. But that was a risky move. 

 

And it’s not how Axl explained the song at first. He was more saying it was like being scared getting off the bus. So it captured real street talk. 

 

I don’t think people see Shackler’s and Catcher as 3rd person movies either. 

 

Yeah but why write that song in first person? You at least need the chorus to balance it out. If you go first person then you have to claim free speech or irony. Shifting perspectives I guess is okay. There’s the context of you were too high, even admitting not lnowing right from wrong. It’s a darker song in first person. Axl alluded to that also by saying it’s a song he used to get things done. I’m in this shit situation, but I’m one in a million or even the sarcastic call from indianna say you won’t make it. That’s how it comes across. The aggressive delivery and determination seem to be what people hear. Not the ominous sadness of the outro. 

Edited by wasted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, magisme said:

Bonus Round: Name a GNR song that's in third person.

Depends on your definition but Sweet Child O Mine is describing someone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wasted said:

Depends on your definition but Sweet Child O Mine is describing someone. 

"seem to ME"

"remind ME"

"I see her face"

 

It's about the girl, but the narrator is a character who says "I", therefore first person.

 

Same with Shackler's and Catcher.

 

I'm not sure Guns has a third person song.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, magisme said:

"seem to ME"

"remind ME"

"I see her face"

 

It's about the girl, but the narrator is a character who says "I", therefore first person.

 

Same with Shackler's and Catcher.

 

I'm not sure Guns has a third person song.

Shackler’s and Catcher are like OIAM in that the he said parts are ommitted. 

 

Blur do more obvious third person songs. He’s on time yet again. That’s 3rd person? But as soon as the lyric writer says I think he’s lame, it loses it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, magisme said:

Yeah, that Blur song looks like 3rd person.

Colin Zeal does look like a legit 3rd person song. 

 

Primal Scream have song called Suicide Sally and Johnny Guitar. But I think the singer breaks with the charactrs and starts songing about himself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

Live And Let Die :awesome:

Seems like second person? 

 

But if you put Paul McCartney said before it, it’s 3rd person. In a way all covers are 3rd person. This other writer said this. 

 

 

Edited by wasted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They would have to re-write Mr Brownstone or Rocket Queen. Set a soap opera to music. No boasting about your penchant for drugs and sexy time. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, magisme said:

Bonus Round: Name a GNR song that's in third person.

Does n't exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ragnar said:

Does n't exist.

I still think OIAM, Shackler’s and Catcher are in the spirit of Third Person. To think of OIAM guy as first person (shooter) opens too many doors to question who the characters are in It’s So Easy or Mr Brownstone. Are we meant to take them seriously but not Mr. OIAM? That’s way too confusing. 

 

For me calling OIAM a third person character gets the point over clearer than saying first person character anyway. What are we doing here? Trying to get Axl framed up by the authoratarian left or set our boy free to write audio movies with characters? 

 

Maybe we should release something, they are closing in on us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

Live And Let Die :awesome:

It might be their only second person song.

 

4 hours ago, Ragnar said:

Does n't exist.

I'm pretty sure this is correct.

 

1 hour ago, wasted said:

I still think OIAM, Shackler’s and Catcher are in the spirit of Third Person. To think of OIAM guy as first person (shooter) opens too many doors to question who the characters are in It’s So Easy or Mr Brownstone. Are we meant to take them seriously but not Mr. OIAM? That’s way too confusing. 

 

For me calling OIAM a third person character gets the point over clearer than saying first person character anyway. What are we doing here? Trying to get Axl framed up by the authoratarian left or set our boy free to write audio movies with characters? 

 

Maybe we should release something, they are closing in on us. 

Nah. I think it's important to emphasize that first person does not mean that the author is the character or that he even agrees with the character. Once you start down this "spirit of third person" road, you're basically promoting a misunderstanding of first person and throwing every author who uses first person for controversial characters under the bus. These are simply terms for the narrative voice. They say nothing about the author's feelings toward the characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we say that everything is a quote in OIAM, however, then there is no first, second, or third person, because there is no narrator. There are only characters.

Edited by magisme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, magisme said:

It might be their only second person song.

 

I'm pretty sure this is correct.

 

Nah. I think it's important to emphasize that first person does not mean that the author is the character or that he even agrees with the character. Once you start down this "spirit of third person" road, you're basically promoting a misunderstanding of first person and throwing every author who uses first person for controversial characters under the bus. These are simply terms for the narrative voice. They say nothing about the author's feelings toward the characters.

It’s too complicated for the media. 

 

First person means author’s opinion. 

 

Third person means means fun Superhero movie. 

 

We in the Far Left Jungle, you’re a third person character. 

 

My Michelle might be Second Person. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, magisme said:

If we say that everything is a quote in OIAM, however, then there is no first, second, or third person, because there is no narrator. There are only characters.

The narrator is the script writer/ music director. 

 

It’s limited Third person where the narrator reveals very little. Maybe the juxtaposition of dialogue, order and background music are the narrator. It’s a song, if you throw in some goose stepping sound effects it’s all going to hell. 

Edited by wasted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, wasted said:

The narrator is the script writer/ music director. 

No. Narration must occur in the script for there to be a narrator, like American Psycho and Goodfellas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, magisme said:

No. Narration must occur in the script for there to be a narrator, like American Psycho and Goodfellas.

It can be limited to order of dialogue and sound effects in a song. I don’t think it can match fiction. You’ve got an invisible narrator. The listener adds the racist said and Indianna said to the lyrics. 

Edited by wasted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, wasted said:

order of dialogue

That's close to what is called "epistolary voice". Narrator is not a voice but a curator.

 

2 minutes ago, wasted said:

sound effects in a song

That's an interesting point. Instrumentation as narration. I can maybe get behind that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, magisme said:

That's close to what is called "epistolary voice". Narrator is not a voice but a curator.

 

That's an interesting point. Instrumentation as narration. I can maybe get behind that.

In song the music director is the narrator.

 

There’s still a problem with who is directing the dialogue. The idea that the first person is driving the narration is easier but it doesn’t give the impression that there are multiple characters being manipulated. In popular speak it’s the same thing. In terms of dialogue you are just giving first person speech a characters name. In song lyrics you leave it out for fluency. Iron maiden don’t so it sounds all clunky. We need a new term Third first person narration. 

Edited by wasted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...