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Axl and Slash "not on great terms", will do no interviews or be photographed together

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Out of 30 songs released only 13 or 14 were good the rest were either mediocre at best or complete rubbish at worst. UYIs should have been a single album only with strongest tracks from both volumes.

 

Notion that they did it to give fans lots of music or a chance to buy one or the other is bullshit they did it to make as much money as possible because everyone knew no one would buy one CD and leave another.

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In the past few months or so though I've kind of done a 180 on the records. I find them to be, in a lot of places, incredibly corny and dated, and horrible sounding to boot. While both albums have their share of really great songs (YCBM, Bad Obsession, DTJ, Pretty Tied Up, etc), every song is plagued with terrible, very sterile and dated sounding production and mixing; no song is truly 'raw'; every track is polished to precision. Matt's drumming is flat, lacking in groove, and at times even sounds like a drum machine. The guitars lack the unique dynamics of the interplay between Izzy and Slash that recalled the early Rolling Stones, and instead, the guitars on many tracks are compressed and sound like one giant slush (at least, the rhythm parts).

Axl's vocals are incredibly scratchy on most of the record, compared with the perfection that is his voice on Appetite. It's a raspy, broken glass sound rather than the rasp-meets-punk snarl on Appetite for Destruction.

You have good songs that either have a lot of weird effects added to them (the bubble/fart sounds on Garden of Eden), or weird artistic choices (the phone call on KOHD. KOOL RANCH DRESSING, and so on). Unneeded musical instruments which just seem like showboating (banjo on Breakdown, sitar on Pretty Tied Up), which water down those songs.

In the past few months during the reunion hoopla....I listened to the old albums for the first time in years. Brought back a lot of memories but yeah....its simply too polished and if there was ever a time for the world to get to hear the rough mix  of those albums that Slash always said shits on the final product....now is the time.

 

 

The guitars lack the unique dynamics of the interplay between Izzy and Slash that recalled the early Rolling Stones, and instead, the guitars on many tracks are compressed and sound like one giant slush (at least, the rhythm parts).

Yeah....because unfortunately Izzy stopped giving a shit at some point during those sessions and Slash takes over. Its not just the absence of Adler that changed the dynamic....its Izzy putting on his parachute waiting for the perfect moment to bail out.

 

While Izzy's songwriting is all over that album.....like you said...that "interplay" is not.

 

I wish Izzy could have figured out a way to stick it out through the egos, drugs, and bullshit. The albums suffer due to his lack of interest. Hell...Pretty Tied Up was initially supposed to have him doing lead vocals....I guess by the time it got to putting the finishing touches on that track he was no longer showing up at the studio.

 

I always wondered if the performance of DTJ at Rio 91 with Axl doing vocals(which would become standard) was some sort of dig at Izzy at the time. Like "Since you wouldn't bother to put vocals down for PTU, I'll just go ahead and sing this too". Axl stated years later he considered UYI rushed and not ready for release. Dollars to donuts you give him a few more months to work on that, the album version of DTJ has him on vocals....not Izzy.

 

His interviews in 91-92 were very harsh towards Izzy....reminiscent of his stance towards Slash many years later but in the case of Izzy....his laziness and lack of interest in UYI and pulling his own weight was the issue.

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In the past few months or so though I've kind of done a 180 on the records. I find them to be, in a lot of places, incredibly corny and dated, and horrible sounding to boot. While both albums have their share of really great songs (YCBM, Bad Obsession, DTJ, Pretty Tied Up, etc), every song is plagued with terrible, very sterile and dated sounding production and mixing; no song is truly 'raw'; every track is polished to precision. Matt's drumming is flat, lacking in groove, and at times even sounds like a drum machine. The guitars lack the unique dynamics of the interplay between Izzy and Slash that recalled the early Rolling Stones, and instead, the guitars on many tracks are compressed and sound like one giant slush (at least, the rhythm parts).

Axl's vocals are incredibly scratchy on most of the record, compared with the perfection that is his voice on Appetite. It's a raspy, broken glass sound rather than the rasp-meets-punk snarl on Appetite for Destruction.

You have good songs that either have a lot of weird effects added to them (the bubble/fart sounds on Garden of Eden), or weird artistic choices (the phone call on KOHD. KOOL RANCH DRESSING, and so on). Unneeded musical instruments which just seem like showboating (banjo on Breakdown, sitar on Pretty Tied Up), which water down those songs.

In the past few months during the reunion hoopla....I listened to the old albums for the first time in years. Brought back a lot of memories but yeah....its simply too polished and if there was ever a time for the world to get to hear the rough mix  of those albums that Slash always said shits on the final product....now is the time.

 

 

The guitars lack the unique dynamics of the interplay between Izzy and Slash that recalled the early Rolling Stones, and instead, the guitars on many tracks are compressed and sound like one giant slush (at least, the rhythm parts).

Yeah....because unfortunately Izzy stopped giving a shit at some point during those sessions and Slash takes over. Its not just the absence of Adler that changed the dynamic....its Izzy putting on his parachute waiting for the perfect moment to bail out.

 

While Izzy's songwriting is all over that album.....like you said...that "interplay" is not.

 

I wish Izzy could have figured out a way to stick it out through the egos, drugs, and bullshit. The albums suffer due to his lack of interest. Hell...Pretty Tied Up was initially supposed to have him doing lead vocals....I guess by the time it got to putting the finishing touches on that track he was no longer showing up at the studio.

 

I always wondered if the performance of DTJ at Rio 91 with Axl doing vocals(which would become standard) was some sort of dig at Izzy at the time. Like "Since you wouldn't bother to put vocals down for PTU, I'll just go ahead and sing this too". Axl stated years later he considered UYI rushed and not ready for release. Dollars to donuts you give him a few more months to work on that, the album version of DTJ has him on vocals....not Izzy.

 

His interviews in 91-92 were very harsh towards Izzy....reminiscent of his stance towards Slash many years later but in the case of Izzy....his laziness and lack of interest in UYI and pulling his own weight was the issue.

 

There are raw mixes already out there - listen to this set, it's the mix Axl would've gotten before the songs went into the final mix. It is rawer, but still has the same problems as the final product which I mentioned:

There's a few more.

Can you blame Izzy for leaving though? I mean, trying to maintain sober, and being around Axl alone would be enough to make one have a drink. Read Duff's book, a lot of his own habits got much worse due to the tension of waiting hours for Axl and wondering if tonight was gonna be another riot that might actually kill someone. Now, combine that, from Izzy's POV, with being backstage with guys who are doing solutions, pills and powders, which would be very tempting to someone nearly sober. On top of that, Izzy never wanted Guns to be as big as they got. Izzy is perfectly fine being a niche act. Guns went from being a niche thing to being this self-indulgent monster overnight. By the time he left, they were making songs over the phone! I mean, the GN'R scene must've been a mindfuck. All the cliched trappings of extreme fame taken to excess. Axl was getting weird already with the past life regression and exorcisms, Duff was becoming a zombie...Now, that's just from an emotional standpoint. From a musical standpoint, Izzy didn't like that Steven was fired, and has made it clear he felt the band sucked after Steven's firing. So, you've got a band which has become a monster, something you never intended it to be, and musically, it just isn't thrilling you anymore. I can see why Izzy wouldn't be all into the UYI records, and why the only solution for him was to quit. He probably would've ended up back on drugs, or worse, if he hadn't. I mean, the situation in Guns was so shitty by that point, Duff in his book says he found himself at home in a closet with a shotgun in his mouth not long after Rio 1991. Slash in his book speaks of feeling suicidal in his last few years in Guns. It wasn't fun anymore, and probably stopped being fun around 1988...So, I don't at all blame Izzy (or Slash, or Duff) for quitting. They were saving themselves...I mean, maybe Izzy would've ended up blowing his head off like Kurt Cobain had he stayed.

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In the past few months or so though I've kind of done a 180 on the records. I find them to be, in a lot of places, incredibly corny and dated, and horrible sounding to boot. While both albums have their share of really great songs (YCBM, Bad Obsession, DTJ, Pretty Tied Up, etc), every song is plagued with terrible, very sterile and dated sounding production and mixing; no song is truly 'raw'; every track is polished to precision. Matt's drumming is flat, lacking in groove, and at times even sounds like a drum machine. The guitars lack the unique dynamics of the interplay between Izzy and Slash that recalled the early Rolling Stones, and instead, the guitars on many tracks are compressed and sound like one giant slush (at least, the rhythm parts).

Axl's vocals are incredibly scratchy on most of the record, compared with the perfection that is his voice on Appetite. It's a raspy, broken glass sound rather than the rasp-meets-punk snarl on Appetite for Destruction.

You have good songs that either have a lot of weird effects added to them (the bubble/fart sounds on Garden of Eden), or weird artistic choices (the phone call on KOHD. KOOL RANCH DRESSING, and so on). Unneeded musical instruments which just seem like showboating (banjo on Breakdown, sitar on Pretty Tied Up), which water down those songs.

In the past few months during the reunion hoopla....I listened to the old albums for the first time in years. Brought back a lot of memories but yeah....its simply too polished and if there was ever a time for the world to get to hear the rough mix  of those albums that Slash always said shits on the final product....now is the time.

 

 

The guitars lack the unique dynamics of the interplay between Izzy and Slash that recalled the early Rolling Stones, and instead, the guitars on many tracks are compressed and sound like one giant slush (at least, the rhythm parts).

Yeah....because unfortunately Izzy stopped giving a shit at some point during those sessions and Slash takes over. Its not just the absence of Adler that changed the dynamic....its Izzy putting on his parachute waiting for the perfect moment to bail out.

 

While Izzy's songwriting is all over that album.....like you said...that "interplay" is not.

 

I wish Izzy could have figured out a way to stick it out through the egos, drugs, and bullshit. The albums suffer due to his lack of interest. Hell...Pretty Tied Up was initially supposed to have him doing lead vocals....I guess by the time it got to putting the finishing touches on that track he was no longer showing up at the studio.

 

I always wondered if the performance of DTJ at Rio 91 with Axl doing vocals(which would become standard) was some sort of dig at Izzy at the time. Like "Since you wouldn't bother to put vocals down for PTU, I'll just go ahead and sing this too". Axl stated years later he considered UYI rushed and not ready for release. Dollars to donuts you give him a few more months to work on that, the album version of DTJ has him on vocals....not Izzy.

 

His interviews in 91-92 were very harsh towards Izzy....reminiscent of his stance towards Slash many years later but in the case of Izzy....his laziness and lack of interest in UYI and pulling his own weight was the issue.

 

 

If the waited until UYI "was ready" by Axls starts it would not have been released until like 95 or 96.

CD was forced out, Axl still didn't think that was ready either when in fact it was ready in 2002.

 

In the case of Cd the songs got worse and worse over time, the 2002 versions (based on live versions and the leaks) are far super to the album tracks. Just look at CITR for example. Even though the Brian May version is poor sound quality (a fan did touch it up yes) it still is way better than the shitty over produced mess that is the album version.

 

Look at UYIs as well. The demo version of don't cry is way better than the album version and that is a legit demo.

 

The funny thing is Axls considered the leaks just demos which is laughable.   I still would love to hear the 2002 version of CD before BBF was added to it and all this extra layers.

 

I would love to hear the punkish version of Chinese Democracy (the song).  The HOB version is amazing especially with that wah wah wah stuff BH was doing .

 

what makes the album version of CD the song even worse is that stupid extra vocal layer Axl added. The leak with mostly is deep voice was perfect.  

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dave I definitely wasn't suggesting they delay UYI. :CoolFace:  It was overcooked on release. Just pointing out that had he been given more time, more changes would have been made and like with CD....not for the better. We're lucky they were touring during those final months before release. It limited how much they could tinker with it.

 

 

Yeah I always said I'd take that 2001 album over a reunion any day of the week. THAT is Chinese Democracy.

 

 

 

 

Axl still didn't think that was ready either when in fact it was ready in 2002.

To be fair, he considered it finished in 2001. Wanted it mixed, mastered, and thrown out there. This is when Ezrin enters the mix, pretty much laughs in his face, label balks,  album gets sent to purgatory where it will be ruined during the next seven years with the "finishing touches".  Funny how all these finishing touches are just adding layers of noise on top of his own parts(vocals) which he sure as shit considered finished in 2001.

 

 

 

what makes the album version of CD the song even worse is that stupid extra vocal layer Axl added. The leak with mostly is deep voice was perfect.

When he went into the studio late 06/early 07, this is one of the few songs he likely worked on and yeah....it wasn't needed. It changed the song completely.

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NOt editing that post a second time but I'll say this...

 

If given a few more months on UYI(which he states he wasn't finished) I bet the following would happen

 

DTJ gets new vocals

 

DNB and 14 Years are dropped for either Aint Going Down or one or two of the TSI covers finished

 

Izzy's guitar is completelhy removed from the album and Slash does all the rhythm.

 

Does that sound good to anyone?  :shrugs: 

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DNB and 14 Years are dropped for either Aint Going Down or one or two of the TSI covers finished

 

Izzy's guitar is completelhy removed from the album and Slash does all the rhythm.

[vomiting intensifies]

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a malicious, evil con artist who wakes up every day wondering how he's going to fuck the fans over? No. A pretentious, lazy musician who has delusions of grandeur, but is stymied by his own laziness and insecurities? Yes.

Perhaps con-artist was the incorrect term.

I'll agree, he's extremely lazy, and don't think he's malicious towards the fans, necessarily, but they definitely piss him off when the call for new music grows louder. Maybe he doesn't even realize it, but he always plays the victim, everything is always someone else's fault. He is very manipulative. I feel like he's lived parts of his life. beginning in Hollywood in the 80's, as something he's not, to achieve a desired outcome. He was a gutter punk, and that fit in with the image of the band, he adapted and grew into the image, and the alter-ego of "Axl Rose", maybe he got into some things because other people around him were doing it, and he wanted to fit in, meet women, etc. But, from all accounts, he wasn't comfortable in his own skin.

With success, and over exposure, he definitely started believing his own press, let his guard down, and with the attention, stopped with the partying, and used the spotlight because he had a captive audience and he could. He'd made it. He left shows whenever, showed up whenever, because he's lazy, and could always come up with an excuse if he didn't feel like being there.

So, after the UYI tour, he was kind of done being a rock star, but I guess he was tied to a contract? And, you have to pay the bills somehow. He was pissed at the band for making him look like the bad guy and leaving him high and dry, embarrassed by his grandiosity, so he decided to lay low.

The '00's were all about spite. And he used it to fuel the new band, but quickly ran out of gas, and creativity. The new album talk was all to cover up that they were a touring nostalgia act. He had the GNR name and has used it to bring more money in than he would have under his own, or under a different band name. It was never about creating anything new, and moving on from old guns. If it was, things would have turned out differently, to say the least. He sure did talk a big game, to convince fans that "his vision" was something more than being a tribute act, and if there's one thing he is great at, it's whipping the fans into a frenzy.

He didn't do any press when CD was finally forced out because he didn't care about it. It was something he did to get the record company off his back, and has admitted that the only reason he toured after it was because he had to because of some lawsuit.

He knows what his reputation is and uses it to his advantage. Calling the album Chinese Democracy, in conjunction with his behavior of silence and total control, is all by design to fit the larger narrative, something he would never admit to, but everyone knows to be true, that he is a dictator. "King Axl". But, he wants to be a martyr, too. He will always blame someone else for not allowing him to put albums out, or rely on the age old excuses of "they're trying to push for a reunion" or "Slash wouldn't sign off on it", because he wants to be a martyr, too. But, the money is too good for him to pass up now, he will coast on the backs of Slash and Duff, remain in hiding, play his "gimmick", live comfortably after these 6 shows, and it will get people talking about Guns N' Roses for a little while, maybe boost the royalty checks. When he needs money, he can finally release the other half of Chinese Democracy.

In closing, I think he just does as little as possible, while trying to make it appear that he's doing all that he can possibly do. He has the band do all the press, talk about his creative genius, all the great songs they have. (This makes it look like it's actually a band) and Axl can always say, "well, "so and so" was exaggerating. It's easier for him to tour (and more fun because he gets to travel the world) and be a rock star, than it is to be creative. It's mindless work. He shows up when he wants. All the works already been done for him. He just has to sing, half assed, because you can't hear him in the arena anyway. The hardest part is remembering the words.

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Slash, Duff, Fortus and Frank will put on an extremely corporate, rehearsed, choreographed "energetic" performance that doesn't vary one bit from show to show. The cameras will be mostly focused on those four. Axl will basically just show up and give minimal effort. Just enough to get by. There will be backing tracks.

Sounds like an Aerosmith concert... Except Steven Tyler gives his 100% every night

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There are raw mixes already out there - listen to this set, it's the mix Axl would've gotten before the songs went into the final mix. It is rawer, but still has the same problems as the final product which I mentioned:

Yeah I've heard these....but if these are the mixes Slash always raved on...I don't get the praise. Like you said, it's not  much different from the final product. There has to be a version of those sessions we have yet to hear. If not, Slash was on crack when he said that shit and my interest in such a release drops to zero.

 

For example....I love the Izzy songs....but would like to hear a different vocal take on DTJ as its too slick. Same with Dust N Bones. LOVE that song as is but it lacks the feel of the live versions.

 

 

 

 

Even though I like DNB more than 14 Years, his vocals on 14 Years are better.

 

 

Can you blame Izzy for leaving though?

Of course not. Its just from a fan perspective I wish he could have stuck it out. Everything went to shit after he left. Check out that post Izzy departure GNR discography.

 

Call me crazy but I think had Izzy stayed but Slash left anyways in 95, GNR could have survived with the Stradlin/Rose song writing duo intact but obviously finding a damn good Slash replacement would've been key. Slash leaving would have created a void no doubt but it sure as shit wouldn't have led to the Chinese Democracy saga.

 

 

The new album talk was all to cover up that they were a touring nostalgia act.

Once the saga entered 2006 and up until 2014....this is pretty much truth. It was bait and switch. Dangle a chinese carrot to hardcore fans while hitting the road to tour and promote AFD.

 

 

It was never about creating anything new, and moving on from old guns. If it was, things would have turned out differently, to say the least. He sure did talk a big game, to convince fans that "his vision" was something more than being a tribute act, and if there's one thing he is great at, it's whipping the fans into a frenzy.

He didn't do any press when CD was finally forced out because he didn't care about it.

Some good points but I do believe he had genuine interest late 90s up until 2001, 02 at the latest. I think the label sending the material back to him(multiple times) pretty much killed any desire he had for the project. Just kept adding musical layers to the same songs instead of actually creating new material with the band. The album in 2008 and for shits and giggles lets say CD II comes out in 2017, every song on both albums dates back to the Beavan sessions no matter who lays down an extra solo on the tracks.

 

Axl gets a lot of the blame, maybe some of it warranted but fans are too willing to give the label a free pass on how this saga turned out. He wanted it released in 2001. They wouldn't do it. Had they simply agreed and wrapped it in cellophane and thrown it in stores, we'd have had the same album we got in 2008 but in 2001 instead and it wouldn't have had infinite layers of noise added to it. That 2001 version of Chinese Democracy is the real Chinese Democracy.

 

Hell it wound up having the same album cover it was going to have in 2001-02. You say Axl didn't care about it in 2008. An easy case could be made for that but the label didn't care either. They just wanted their money back they had sunk into the project. The fact they could reject the album in 2001 yet accept the same album seven years later with such a horrid mix shows they no longer cared and may not have even bothered listening to it. Just looked at the track list, assumed it was the same thing he sent in last time, and wrapped it up.

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Now this is more interesting than those other "different but the same" mixes that also surfaced. This here(and much more) is what I would like to see on a box set in the future. I'd also like to hear that supposed 15 minute version of November Rain. I cant even imagine an In-A-Gadda-Da-Vidda style version of NR. Shocking this never surfaced since the other old demos of NR did. That acoustic version of NR, while low quality, is really good and gives the song a different vibe completely. That needs an official release as well.

 

Its what I loved about that Soundgarden box set Echo of Miles. We got high quality versions of demos we had heard for years and it was worth every penny.

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Who cares at this point? I forfeited giving a fuck along time ago, and if you're smart you should've too. Right along the time Axl cancelled Kimmel, he/they have done nothing but left a paper trail for shitsville USA. How can you possibly call foul with the stench come April whenever? I really don't get how people could reasonably end up being disappointed. They've at least left us enough time to cope with the concept that it'll be shit. My expectations couldn't be lower, and all that I ask is that it's at least fucking hilarious.

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And he switched to the "slimming" black t-shirt of a woman upside-down in a garbage can. Mission not accomplished. :lol:

 

There goes the "Axl's going to get in shape and take this seriously!" crowd. :lol:

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I know I do nothing but talk shit - which, incidentally, is completely justified at this stage in the game - but I was really hoping that Axl would, at the very least, get his physical shit together, i.e. fatness and vocals. If he can't even do that, fuck him. I won't begrudge anyone who goes to the shows because I get it, but if you don't admit you're being scammed and fucked in the ass, then it's time for you to see a therapist or something.

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I know I do nothing but talk shit - which, incidentally, is completely justified at this stage in the game - but I was really hoping that Axl would, at the very least, get his physical shit together, i.e. fatness and vocals. If he can't even do that, fuck him. I won't begrudge anyone who goes to the shows because I get it, but if you don't admit you're being scammed and fucked in the ass, then it's time for you to see a therapist or something.

I generally live to give the benefit of the doubt, but it's Axl we're talking about. I'm with you

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Now this is more interesting than those other "different but the same" mixes that also surfaced. This here(and much more) is what I would like to see on a box set in the future. I'd also like to hear that supposed 15 minute version of November Rain. I cant even imagine an In-A-Gadda-Da-Vidda style version of NR. Shocking this never surfaced since the other old demos of NR did. That acoustic version of NR, while low quality, is really good and gives the song a different vibe completely. That needs an official release as well.

 

Its what I loved about that Soundgarden box set Echo of Miles. We got high quality versions of demos we had heard for years and it was worth every penny.

Same with the Nirvana box set. With the lights out. Excellent.

Not too sure though I'd like to hear an extended version of NR ala Inna Gadda da vidda.... Is it just me or is NR too long and sappy? If it weren't for Slashs solos, the song would be one of GnRs worst

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Now this is more interesting than those other "different but the same" mixes that also surfaced. This here(and much more) is what I would like to see on a box set in the future. I'd also like to hear that supposed 15 minute version of November Rain. I cant even imagine an In-A-Gadda-Da-Vidda style version of NR. Shocking this never surfaced since the other old demos of NR did. That acoustic version of NR, while low quality, is really good and gives the song a different vibe completely. That needs an official release as well.

 

Its what I loved about that Soundgarden box set Echo of Miles. We got high quality versions of demos we had heard for years and it was worth every penny.

Same with the Nirvana box set. With the lights out. Excellent.

Not too sure though I'd like to hear an extended version of NR ala Inna Gadda da vidda.... Is it just me or is NR too long and sappy? If it weren't for Slashs solos, the song would be one of GnRs worst

 

Yeah the final version wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread but I like to hear the evolution of certain tracks. It goes from being a simple acoustic song, to a standard piano track, they record some 15 minute monstrosity demo of it at some point, then we hear its finished version on UYI.

 

Only piece of the NR puzzle not heard is that one.  Is it entirely different or does it just have an 8 minute outro?

 

Look at Soundgarden's Fell on Black Days. Several demos of that..the first sounds nothing like the final version and has different(worse) lyrics. Fans think they've heard em all. The reunion happens, for their best of compilation Telephantasm they release an old/new song called Black Rain which was from the Badmotorfinger sessions and Cornell added some new vocals to it. This song was actually the beginning stage of Fell on Black Days.

 

Fell On

Black Days

 

--

 

Cry On

Black Rain

 

I'd like to hear all the demos from 86-93 including those we've already heard. They deserved a proper release eons ago. My Main interest in this reunion is in the vault opening. I'll go to one show...after that....the money they get from my wallet will be from any music releases. If they'll start selling that GNR Lies shirt again I'll buy that as well.

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