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Sleeping Like An Angel

Tommy Says Record Company Involvement Caused 'Chinese Democracy' Delay

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A.V. Club: "Chinese Democracy" took all of 10 years to make. What was the recording process like? I mean, you couldn't have been working at it every day for 10 years.

Stinson: At first we were in there a lot. We were working on the writing aspect of it, but it just kept going on. We had [interscope chairman] Jimmy Iovine intervening in a not-so-productive way, and we had other guys coming and going with nutty ideas. My summation of the whole thing is that Interscope, when they took over Geffen, really led Axl [Rose] to believe that Jimmy Iovine would be involved, and would help get this record done and make it happen. But basically what he did was let it completely fall apart. Then he had this great idea to bring in [producer] Roy Thomas Baker to make it sound better. All he did was re-record everything three or four different times, trying to make it sound like something it didn't need to sound like, and spend $10 million in the process. My two cents on the whole thing is that I really think Jimmy Iovine fucked the whole thing up. It was a bummer. Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 fucking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, "Make 'em sound better! Make 'em sound better!" So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same fucking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation. That whole era pretty much sums up what happened to the record industry. Those kinds of people, making those kinds of decisions and not really helping the artist.

Link: http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=158416

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It's he same thing Tommy said two years ago. Funny how no one commented on this. I guess the suggestion that someone else may have contributed to some extent to the record's delay is too much of a foreign concept for some here :)

Ali

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Yeah, some people cry out about people "blindly" defending Axl, however it seems they might be a bit selective themselves when it comes to info. Info from a band member no less, and yeah before anyone says it... I know Tommy said the album would be out in 2004 or whatever (so he must be a liar).

Imo the blame must be shared between a number of people, and it apears to have been a really frustrating period for the band. Hopefully the next one will be done without too many suits involved, I think that was the problem for Chinese Democracy - the expectations got way, way too big. As the years went by they weren't exactly getting any smaller.

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...throwing the blame on one of the most successful music executives of all time isn't going to cut it. Jimmy Iovine didn't labor over a thousand layers of vocals and guitar tracks at a time. Jimmy Iovine didn't isolate a vast majority of the members to ever come through the band. Jimmy Iovine isn't Axl Rose. From what Tommy is saying, Jimmy delayed the album because he wanted it to be good. What a horrible person.

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So even high paid people knew that their music was pretty bad and wanted to get something special outta them...

Allot of us feel the same way...boo hoo...

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Please read through existing threads to see if "news" has already been reported.

Had you done so, you would have seen that this "news" was reported days ago. :rolleyes:

http://www.gunsnfnroses.com/index.php?/topic/4383-tommy-stinson-says-hes-not-as-comfortable-working-with-axl-as-he-was-with-previous-singers/

Edited by BBA

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So the old man on American Idol slowed down Axl? That sounds like such bullshit to me. When they shopped around Appetite they let nobody change their songs.

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Please that is a load of BS, Axl was the one who wanted to keep redoing the songs, not JI.

Hell after JI left, Axl still tinkered with the songs for how many more years????

Its a joke to think the label would not have wanted the album out in 2002, Axl never once passed in the album until 2008 and that is when it came out.

The same thing happened with the UYIs. Gnrs ex-manager even said the songs sounded fine back in 2002 and even said the song CD from back then kicks the shit out of the album version.

Axl was the one who wanted all the re-recordings not anyone else. Hell Axls calls the leaks DEMOs, those are not demos and everyone knows it

Even after RTB left, Axl was STILL thinkering with the album for how many more years?

Just look at the leaks vs the album cuts ,the are different because Axl had them redone AGAIN and AGAIN. I mean we have FOUR versions of better. That is on Axl.

The only thing RTB most likely did was have BH and Brain rerecord the Freese and and some of Fincks parts and that was a smart thing because just listen to Twat and IRS before and after BH/Brains parts were added.

The versions of BH are way better. But Axl was still dicking with the album for six years AFTER Baker left in 2002

How is it Bakers fault it took CD six years after he left to come out?

Edited by dave-gnfnr2k

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It is easy to blame Roy Thomas Baker for delaying the album but the guy was producer for about 2 years, 2000-2002. So what the fuck was Axl doing the other 12-14 years it took to write and record ChiDem? Was RTB somehow fucking with Axl in the background those years also.

And Tommy loses all credibility when he claims RTB spent 10 million dollars rerecording the album over a 2 year period. So the album cost about $14 million total and RTB spent $10 million in a two year period?

When Geffen finally persuaded Tom Zutaut to come back to work with Axl on ChiDem Tom found that the label footing the bill $75,000.00 a month on rented equipment, close to a Million a year, that was sitting in the corners collecting dust most of it never even used. I suppose that was RTB's fault? Axl would not show up to the studio for days at a time and all the engineers would be there twiddling their thumbs costing the label huge $$$. Again is that the producers fault that Axl would not come and could not be reached? So who is to blame for Axl's no shows? is that RTB?

Buckethead quit the band becasue Axl was never there to record with him and he got frustrated with all the dicking around. Tom Zutaut had to talk him into coming back and then build him a chicken coop in the studio to pacify him...Again is that the producers fault?

I don't think Axl was 100% responsible for the delays but he sure had a major hand in wasting time and money in the whole process..........and Tommy is working for Axl and is paid by him so whose side of the story do you think he is going to take? Do you think he is stupid enough to say Axl was a fuckup? come on lets be real............

Edited by classicrawker

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It is easy to blame Roy Thomas Baker for delaying the album but the guy was producer for about 2 years, 2000-2002. So what the fuck was Axl doing the other 12-14 years it took to write and record ChiDem? Was RTB somehow fucking with Axl in the background those years also.

And Tommy loses all credibility when he claims RTB spent 10 million dollars rerecording the album over a 2 year period. So the album cost about $14 million total and RTB spent $10 million in a two year period?

When Geffen finally persuaded Tom Zutaut to come back to work with Axl on ChiDem Tom found that the label footing the bill $75,000.00 a month on rented equipment, close to a Million a year, that was sitting in the corners collecting dust most of it never even used. I suppose that was RTB's fault? Axl would not show up to the studio for days at a time and all the engineers would be there twiddling their thumbs costing the label huge $$$. Again is that the producers fault that Axl would not come and could not be reached? So who is to blame for Axl's no shows? is that RTB?

Buckethead quit the band becasue Axl was never there to record with him and he got frustrated with all the dicking around. Tom Zutaut had to talk him into coming back and then build him a chicken coop in the studio to pacify him...Again is that the producers fault?

I don't think Axl was 100% responsible for the delays but he sure had a major hand in wasting time and money in the whole process..........and Tommy is working for Axl and is paid by him so whose side of the story do you think he is going to take? Do you think he is stupid enough to say Axl was a fuckup? come on lets be real............

Axl had a finished album in 2002 after RTB left, he could have easily released the album then, but Axl decided to dick around with the album for six more years and make it worse.

And BH is used to doing an album cut a few times and be done with it, where as with Axl he had him do it over and over again like 20 times.

Then of course Axl would just cut and paste bits out of those solos to make one solo, just like he did with Brian May.

Axl was stupid, he had an amazing guitar player and let him get away. I really hope we get to hear the rough cuts of CD someday bc i am sure those cuts are amazign

Edited by dave-gnfnr2k

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Axl was the one who wanted all the re-recordings not anyone else.

I won't deny that Axl wanted the re-recordings, but so did Roy Thomas Baker.

Ever seen the video where Brain explains the recording process of CD? Axl initially wanted Brain to re-record Freese's drum tracks note for note, fine. Roy was the one saying it had to be done in one take, not in sections. So then, he would have to rehearse the whole song for two weeks in order to record it. That's just the drums, and the story behind it.

It pretty much adds up to what Tommy said about Roy, re-recording things three-four times.

Also, when this "why did it take so long" thing comes up, where does everyone blaming it solely on Axl get their info from? Either it's just personal anger towards the guy for "breaking up" the band or having read it on the internet. What source on the internet? Journalists pieces of speculation around the subject... That's it. Here we have two band members explaining the circumstances around the situation and it simply gets written off as "bullshit".

Axl had an enormous task ahead of him back in 97 when he was the last man standing and had to start from scratch. First of all, he had the Guns N Roses name to live up to. He had to go out and find players who could live up to the band name, and continue the legacy of such a world class act. Finding band chemistry that way could in no way be an easy task, naturally that would take a lot of time. On top of that comes the songwriting and actual recording, with all that comes with it. Then you have the record company over your shoulders demanding results. In a creative environment that cannot be a good thing to have disturbing the process. It's a necessity in an office to have the boss pressuring you, but in the music world no. I think Axl, as the leader of the band, has to take the responsibilty along with the producers, managers and record company. This was a rare case of a mythical album where no one seemed to know how to handle it. The pressure on them grew for each day, and that certainly didn't help things get along.

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Axl was the one who wanted all the re-recordings not anyone else.

I won't deny that Axl wanted the re-recordings, but so did Roy Thomas Baker.

Ever seen the video where Brain explains the recording process of CD? Axl initially wanted Brain to re-record Freese's drum tracks note for note, fine. Roy was the one saying it had to be done in one take, not in sections. So then, he would have to rehearse the whole song for two weeks in order to record it. That's just the drums, and the story behind it.

It pretty much adds up to what Tommy said about Roy, re-recording things three-four times.

Also, when this "why did it take so long" thing comes up, where does everyone blaming it solely on Axl get their info from? Either it's just personal anger towards the guy for "breaking up" the band or having read it on the internet. What source on the internet? Journalists pieces of speculation around the subject... That's it. Here we have two band members explaining the circumstances around the situation and it simply gets written off as "bullshit".

Axl had an enormous task ahead of him back in 97 when he was the last man standing and had to start from scratch. First of all, he had the Guns N Roses name to live up to. He had to go out and find players who could live up to the band name, and continue the legacy of such a world class act. Finding band chemistry that way could in no way be an easy task, naturally that would take a lot of time. On top of that comes the songwriting and actual recording, with all that comes with it. Then you have the record company over your shoulders demanding results. In a creative environment that cannot be a good thing to have disturbing the process. It's a necessity in an office to have the boss pressuring you, but in the music world no. I think Axl, as the leader of the band, has to take the responsibilty along with the producers, managers and record company. This was a rare case of a mythical album where no one seemed to know how to handle it. The pressure on them grew for each day, and that certainly didn't help things get along.

Like I said RTB wanted BH and Brain to rerecord the songs, that is fine but RTB left in 2002, so it was not him holding up the album from 2002-2008, that was Axl holding it up, that is my point. RTB was only the producer for two years and he took what Axl had (listen to the IRS and TWAT Demo) and he made them way better (listen to the leaks that came out in 2006). That is what RTB did to the songs, They were done by that point, but Axl tinkered with hte songs for six more years and then we got the shit that was on the album versions.

You are right though,, RTB wanted each person to play the song in one take, that is how normal people do it.

Axl was the one who had the band members just keep playing small bit parts OVER and OVER again so he could cut and paste them together to make what we got with CD.

So how did RTB cause CD to take 6 extra years to release? And how many takes do you think it takes most bands to get a song right

Three or four seems normal dont you think? I mean look at all the AFD demos we have. We have like 4 versions of each AFD song.

So how is that not normal? Axl had the band do each section of a song like 50 times.

Its laughable you are talking like RTB having the band do each song 4 times as a lot LOL

Are you really trying to use that as a defense for Axl?

The thing is you should never record a song more than 4 times (4 takes) because after that you loose the crispness of it, and you lose the rawness of it.

Edited by dave-gnfnr2k

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Axl was the one who wanted all the re-recordings not anyone else.

I won't deny that Axl wanted the re-recordings, but so did Roy Thomas Baker.

Ever seen the video where Brain explains the recording process of CD? Axl initially wanted Brain to re-record Freese's drum tracks note for note, fine. Roy was the one saying it had to be done in one take, not in sections. So then, he would have to rehearse the whole song for two weeks in order to record it. That's just the drums, and the story behind it.

It pretty much adds up to what Tommy said about Roy, re-recording things three-four times.

Also, when this "why did it take so long" thing comes up, where does everyone blaming it solely on Axl get their info from? Either it's just personal anger towards the guy for "breaking up" the band or having read it on the internet. What source on the internet? Journalists pieces of speculation around the subject... That's it. Here we have two band members explaining the circumstances around the situation and it simply gets written off as "bullshit".

Axl had an enormous task ahead of him back in 97 when he was the last man standing and had to start from scratch. First of all, he had the Guns N Roses name to live up to. He had to go out and find players who could live up to the band name, and continue the legacy of such a world class act. Finding band chemistry that way could in no way be an easy task, naturally that would take a lot of time. On top of that comes the songwriting and actual recording, with all that comes with it. Then you have the record company over your shoulders demanding results. In a creative environment that cannot be a good thing to have disturbing the process. It's a necessity in an office to have the boss pressuring you, but in the music world no. I think Axl, as the leader of the band, has to take the responsibilty along with the producers, managers and record company. This was a rare case of a mythical album where no one seemed to know how to handle it. The pressure on them grew for each day, and that certainly didn't help things get along.

Who is blaming everything on Axl?

You and other Axl fans keep ignoring the fact that Roy Thomas Baker was only the producer on ChiDem for about 2 years 2000- spring of 2002 so how do you explain the other 6-8 years of delays from 1997-1999 and 2002- 2008? who was causing the delays then?

You also conveniently ignore the article about the recording of ChiDem which shows the recording sessions were a three ring circus where Bucket quit because of all the delays and Axl never being in the studio to work with.

Tommy claims RTB spent 10 Million dollars in the two years when the whole album only cost 14 million to make and we are supposed to take his word as gospel? The man is still Axl's employee what do you expect him to say tha it was Axl's fault?

Axll did not cause all the delays but he sure was a major part of the problem...........

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All right, well since Tommy said so, I guess it wasn't 100% Axl's fault.

I'm willing to concede that it was 99% Axl's fault....happy now?

PS...Tommy says lots of shit. He's pretty good at repeating what Axl tells him is OK to repeat to the press. Hell he said in 2004 that "It's a hairs breadth from being finished," which obviously wasn't true. So i guess he's just a liar now, isn't he?

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Axl was the one who wanted all the re-recordings not anyone else.

I won't deny that Axl wanted the re-recordings, but so did Roy Thomas Baker.

Ever seen the video where Brain explains the recording process of CD? Axl initially wanted Brain to re-record Freese's drum tracks note for note, fine. Roy was the one saying it had to be done in one take, not in sections. So then, he would have to rehearse the whole song for two weeks in order to record it. That's just the drums, and the story behind it.

It pretty much adds up to what Tommy said about Roy, re-recording things three-four times.

Also, when this "why did it take so long" thing comes up, where does everyone blaming it solely on Axl get their info from? Either it's just personal anger towards the guy for "breaking up" the band or having read it on the internet. What source on the internet? Journalists pieces of speculation around the subject... That's it. Here we have two band members explaining the circumstances around the situation and it simply gets written off as "bullshit".

Axl had an enormous task ahead of him back in 97 when he was the last man standing and had to start from scratch. First of all, he had the Guns N Roses name to live up to. He had to go out and find players who could live up to the band name, and continue the legacy of such a world class act. Finding band chemistry that way could in no way be an easy task, naturally that would take a lot of time. On top of that comes the songwriting and actual recording, with all that comes with it. Then you have the record company over your shoulders demanding results. In a creative environment that cannot be a good thing to have disturbing the process. It's a necessity in an office to have the boss pressuring you, but in the music world no. I think Axl, as the leader of the band, has to take the responsibilty along with the producers, managers and record company. This was a rare case of a mythical album where no one seemed to know how to handle it. The pressure on them grew for each day, and that certainly didn't help things get along.

Like I said RTB wanted BH and Brain to rerecord the songs, that is fine but RTB left in 2002, so it was not him holding up the album from 2002-2008, that was Axl holding it up, that is my point. RTB was only the producer for two years and he took what Axl had (listen to the IRS and TWAT Demo) and he made them way better (listen to the leaks that came out in 2006). That is what RTB did to the songs, They were done by that point, but Axl tinkered with hte songs for six more years and then we got the shit that was on the album versions.

You are right though,, RTB wanted each person to play the song in one take, that is how normal people do it.

Axl was the one who had the band members just keep playing small bit parts OVER and OVER again so he could cut and paste them together to make what we got with CD.

So how did RTB cause CD to take 6 extra years to release?

To my defence you edited you post after I started writing the reply.

I got the impression from Brain that he himself thought it would be done in sections until Roy said "one take". He didn't say anything about Axl having any thoughts on that exact matter.

As for the leaks it must've been a couple of years since I've listened so I can't really comment on any specifics. One obvious improvement would be Buckethead's TWAT solo. If RTB should be credited for that I don't know. By the way, were the 06 leaks labeled 2002? I can't really remember. If they weren't, it could just as well be the results of 2005 production.

I never blamed RTB for the "6 extra years". My point was only that I don't believe Axl should be blamed for all of it.

Lastly, could you specifically guide me to the source telling me that Axl had the band members keep playing small bit parts over and over again?

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Axl was the one who wanted all the re-recordings not anyone else.

I won't deny that Axl wanted the re-recordings, but so did Roy Thomas Baker.

Ever seen the video where Brain explains the recording process of CD? Axl initially wanted Brain to re-record Freese's drum tracks note for note, fine. Roy was the one saying it had to be done in one take, not in sections. So then, he would have to rehearse the whole song for two weeks in order to record it. That's just the drums, and the story behind it.

It pretty much adds up to what Tommy said about Roy, re-recording things three-four times.

Also, when this "why did it take so long" thing comes up, where does everyone blaming it solely on Axl get their info from? Either it's just personal anger towards the guy for "breaking up" the band or having read it on the internet. What source on the internet? Journalists pieces of speculation around the subject... That's it. Here we have two band members explaining the circumstances around the situation and it simply gets written off as "bullshit".

Axl had an enormous task ahead of him back in 97 when he was the last man standing and had to start from scratch. First of all, he had the Guns N Roses name to live up to. He had to go out and find players who could live up to the band name, and continue the legacy of such a world class act. Finding band chemistry that way could in no way be an easy task, naturally that would take a lot of time. On top of that comes the songwriting and actual recording, with all that comes with it. Then you have the record company over your shoulders demanding results. In a creative environment that cannot be a good thing to have disturbing the process. It's a necessity in an office to have the boss pressuring you, but in the music world no. I think Axl, as the leader of the band, has to take the responsibilty along with the producers, managers and record company. This was a rare case of a mythical album where no one seemed to know how to handle it. The pressure on them grew for each day, and that certainly didn't help things get along.

Like I said RTB wanted BH and Brain to rerecord the songs, that is fine but RTB left in 2002, so it was not him holding up the album from 2002-2008, that was Axl holding it up, that is my point. RTB was only the producer for two years and he took what Axl had (listen to the IRS and TWAT Demo) and he made them way better (listen to the leaks that came out in 2006). That is what RTB did to the songs, They were done by that point, but Axl tinkered with hte songs for six more years and then we got the shit that was on the album versions.

You are right though,, RTB wanted each person to play the song in one take, that is how normal people do it.

Axl was the one who had the band members just keep playing small bit parts OVER and OVER again so he could cut and paste them together to make what we got with CD.

So how did RTB cause CD to take 6 extra years to release?

To my defence you edited you post after I started writing the reply.

I got the impression from Brain that he himself thought it would be done in sections until Roy said "one take". He didn't say anything about Axl having any thoughts on that exact matter.

As for the leaks it must've been a couple of years since I've listened so I can't really comment on any specifics. One obvious improvement would be Buckethead's TWAT solo. If RTB should be credited for that I don't know. By the way, were the 06 leaks labeled 2002? I can't really remember. If they weren't, it could just as well be the results of 2005 production.

I never blamed RTB for the "6 extra years". My point was only that I don't believe Axl should be blamed for all of it.

Lastly, could you specifically guide me to the source telling me that Axl had the band members keep playing small bit parts over and over again?

We really dont know when the 2006 leaks were made but they had to be before 2004 since Brain quit in 04 and the tracks didnt have BBF or Frank on them. So the best guess is they were from 2002-2004 era.

Axl has to be blamed for how long it took. RTB did his job in two years and the album should have been released in 2002. What ever year the first set of leaks were from (2002-2004) those were perfect and just needed to be mastered.

They are way better than than overproduced mess that CD was.

The only thing you can blame RTB for is having the album take two years (which is normal for most albums BTW, not to mention brain said he had his parts done in 7 months).

Anything before that time frame and after is on Axl. The album was read in 2002 but Axl never turned it in and kept tinkering with it after that.

RTB cannot be blamed for anything since he did his job and made the songs go from medicore to great.

Edited by dave-gnfnr2k

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Who is blaming everything on Axl?

You and other Axl fans keep ignoring the fact that Roy Thomas Baker was only the producer on ChiDem for about 2 years 2000- spring of 2002 so how do you explain the other 6-8 years of delays from 1997-1999 and 2002- 2008? who was causing the delays then?

You also conveniently ignore the article about the recording of ChiDem which shows the recording sessions were a three ring circus where Bucket quit because of all the delays and Axl never being in the studio to work with.

Tommy claims RTB spent 10 Million dollars in the two years when the whole album only cost 14 million to make and we are supposed to take his word as gospel? The man is still Axl's employee what do you expect him to say tha it was Axl's fault?

Axll did not cause all the delays but he sure was a major part of the problem...........

EstrangedTWAT did.. Although he has moderated the statement now. :)

But seriously, who's blaming it all on Axl? I think you can find a couple while skimming through this forum...

I know RTB was the producer for two years, I didn't ignore it. Haven't I said Axl's also to blame for this whole thing, or did you ignore it (see what I did there) ;)

Who's to blame for the 2002-2008 delay? Mainly Axl probably. Why? That's the interesting part cause we really don't know.

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Who is blaming everything on Axl?

You and other Axl fans keep ignoring the fact that Roy Thomas Baker was only the producer on ChiDem for about 2 years 2000- spring of 2002 so how do you explain the other 6-8 years of delays from 1997-1999 and 2002- 2008? who was causing the delays then?

You also conveniently ignore the article about the recording of ChiDem which shows the recording sessions were a three ring circus where Bucket quit because of all the delays and Axl never being in the studio to work with.

Tommy claims RTB spent 10 Million dollars in the two years when the whole album only cost 14 million to make and we are supposed to take his word as gospel? The man is still Axl's employee what do you expect him to say tha it was Axl's fault?

Axll did not cause all the delays but he sure was a major part of the problem...........

EstrangedTWAT did.. Although he has moderated the statement now. :)

But seriously, who's blaming it all on Axl? I think you can find a couple while skimming through this forum...

I know RTB was the producer for two years, I didn't ignore it. Haven't I said Axl's also to blame for this whole thing, or did you ignore it (see what I did there) ;)

Who's to blame for the 2002-2008 delay? Mainly Axl probably. Why? That's the interesting part cause we really don't know.

Axl is still to blame for the 2000-2002 delay, since he brought in RTB to redo the 30 songs they had to that point. Not to mention Axl wanted brain to redo Josh's parts which delayed the album for those 7 or 8 months it took brain to redo all the songs.

That is all on Axl.

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We really dont know when the 2006 leaks were made but they had to be before 2004 since Brain quit in 04 and the tracks didnt have BBF or Frank on them. So the best guess is they were from 2002-2004 era.

Axl has to be blamed for how long it took. RTB did his job in two years and the album should have been released in 2002. What ever year the first set of leaks were from (2002-2004) those were perfect and just needed to be mastered.

They are way better than than overproduced mess that CD was.

The only thing you can blame RTB for is having the album take two years (which is normal for most albums BTW, not to mention brain said he had his parts done in 7 months).

Anything before that time frame and after is on Axl. The album was read in 2002 but Axl never turned it in and kept tinkering with it after that.

RTB cannot be blamed for anything since he did his job and made the songs go from medicore to great.

Ok, just a little thought experiment based on the last sentence in your post. I'm in no way portraying this as any sort of truth.

Let's say the leaks are from 2004.

Let's say RTB kept re-recording stuff and really just messing up the songs until they were plain bad.

Let's say the band got really unhappy with the result and fired RTB.

Let's say they re-worked the production in the time period 2002-2004.

The leaked versions would then in no way be the work of RTB, right?

Point being, without any solid evidence it's just speculation.

You can very well be right, but according to Tommy things didn't exactly get better during the RTB period.

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Axl is still to blame for the 2000-2002 delay, since he brought in RTB to redo the 30 songs they had to that point. Not to mention Axl wanted brain to redo Josh's parts which delayed the album for those 7 or 8 months it took brain to redo all the songs.

That is all on Axl.

Jimmy brought in Roy.

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Axl is still to blame for the 2000-2002 delay, since he brought in RTB to redo the 30 songs they had to that point. Not to mention Axl wanted brain to redo Josh's parts which delayed the album for those 7 or 8 months it took brain to redo all the songs.

That is all on Axl.

Jimmy brought in Roy.

Axl had to OK it. And again, RTB did his job and got the album done in two years. Then Axl fired him and hired a new producer and produced some himself and took six more years.

Axl was the reason the album was delayed. Just admit it.

Edited by dave-gnfnr2k

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We really dont know when the 2006 leaks were made but they had to be before 2004 since Brain quit in 04 and the tracks didnt have BBF or Frank on them. So the best guess is they were from 2002-2004 era.

Axl has to be blamed for how long it took. RTB did his job in two years and the album should have been released in 2002. What ever year the first set of leaks were from (2002-2004) those were perfect and just needed to be mastered.

They are way better than than overproduced mess that CD was.

The only thing you can blame RTB for is having the album take two years (which is normal for most albums BTW, not to mention brain said he had his parts done in 7 months).

Anything before that time frame and after is on Axl. The album was read in 2002 but Axl never turned it in and kept tinkering with it after that.

RTB cannot be blamed for anything since he did his job and made the songs go from medicore to great.

Ok, just a little thought experiment based on the last sentence in your post. I'm in no way portraying this as any sort of truth.

Let's say the leaks are from 2004.

Let's say RTB kept re-recording stuff and really just messing up the songs until they were plain bad.

Let's say the band got really unhappy with the result and fired RTB.

Let's say they re-worked the production in the time period 2002-2004.

The leaked versions would then in no way be the work of RTB, right?

Point being, without any solid evidence it's just speculation.

You can very well be right, but according to Tommy things didn't exactly get better during the RTB period.

And according to others who were there he was not the main reason for all the delays, so who is telling the truth?

Edited by classicrawker

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Well, how about the other 18 or so finished songs that have been collecting dust since early 2007?

Are we to believe that Roy Thomas Baker is responsible the delay in releasing them?

:facepalm:

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