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John Bonham

Axl vs. Irving

40 posts in this topic

Nobody wanted the album.

This is not a story of oppressed rock star sticks it to the man, this is a tale about an insane performer who's alienated not only his entire band, but every producer and manager he's ever worked with. By arguing over less than two million dollars, a couple of nights on the road, does Axl end up looking like he's got balls or that he should be committed to an insane asylum?

Let's just say Irving did everything Axl alleges. It's possible. You hear these stories in rock and roll. Are people gonna side with the diminutive businessman or the corn-rowed performer who got plastic surgery to close the VMAs?

Guns N' Roses put out one of the best hard rock albums of all time. "Appetite For Destruction" sold and sold, was featured in videos and still gets airplay today. Sure, the hit was "Sweet Child O' Mine", but come on, wasn't that riff in "Paradise City" amazing? The track built to a frenzy, driving you nuts. And when you heard "Mr. Brownstone", you believed it. This was not twenty first century posturing, where a fake image is manufactured to sell product to the kiddies, these guys lived it.

But the band could never follow it up. And ended up imploding.

The drummer may have been an addict, maybe he needed to go. But Izzy? The guy who added melody and texture to the songs? And by time Axl got rid of Slash, it was over. Saul is iconic, he was truly the other face of the band. And maybe if they called it Axl and..., or Bailey's Roses, or something with the leader in the title, the act could have survived. But this concoction of players was GNR in name only.

Not that the concoction did anything. Played a few gigs. Cancelled more. And supposedly worked on a new album, "Chinese Democracy".

What album's got a title YEARS before release? Isn't the title usually the last thing?

Axl would have been better off saying he shelved that record, making it an unreleased legend like "Smile", and then cutting another (or releasing the same damn work under a different name). Because by time it was finally released, people expected something in the neighborhood of "Appetite", and that was impossible.

But it was impossible for any new work to have the momentum and impact of "Appetite". It was twenty years later. MTV, the centralizing force, was dead. Radio was calcified. And the audience...was in its forties and had jobs and kids and couldn't stay at home all afternoon getting high to new music.

Times changed, but W. Axl Rose did not change with them.

And being the crybaby he is, he kept working on his album, firing people until...he ends up being managed by Irving Azoff.

Who stunningly not only makes a deal with Best Buy, but gets the album in stores.

Where no one wants it.

Best Buy advertises to high heaven. There's even publicity about leaks, which drives sales. But only if the music is good.

And in this case, no one said "Chinese Democracy" was great, and few said it was good, and the shelf life of a project that does not gain legs is...very brief today. Watched that remake of "We Are The World" recently?

But Axl got paid. Or maybe the label got paid. Someone got paid, because Best Buy wrote a check up front. And ended up losing a ton of cash. Then again, they got some people in the store. But on a selling records basis, Best Buy got fleeced. Notice the Minnesota company hasn't done any high profile exclusives since? (And hell, maybe they have, and I just haven't heard about them, proving my point...the paradigm is DEAD!)

But it's the manager's fault. It's always the manager's fault.

So what does the manager do? What everybody in the world wants him to do. Lobbies for Axl to put the original band back together and rape and pillage financially around the world. Didn't Irving create this paradigm, with the Eagles back in '94? Play your hits live for TV, sell an album thereof and then charge a fortune on the endless tour?

Maybe Irving didn't propose this. Then again, he was always eager to get Steve Perry back with Journey, so the story sounds real.

Maybe Irving stopped taking Axl's phone calls when he wouldn't play ball. Maybe Irving sabotaged him. You get in bed with the devil and you live with the consequences. But unlike a Mike Curb deal, Axl wasn't bound to Irving, he could leave. And did!

And now won't pay commissions on a South American tour.

Why? Did Irving not earn the money? Were the gigs not set up under his aegis? Axl is trying to prove a point. Which is?

That he's truly mentally ill? He's mad at Irving for using his real name? Hell, Axl loves Elton, who eventually put out a new album entitled "Reg Strikes Back".

And Axl may not ever go back to being Bill Bailey, but everybody knows he'll eventually reform the original Guns N' Roses and go on the road. That's what bands do. The only reason the original Pink Floyd won't reform is because David Gilmour is so fucking rich, having toured stadiums without Roger Waters as Pink Floyd. Waters sued, but he lost. Waters is dying to reunite the band, everybody on the inside knows this, but Gilmour won't do it, won't give Waters the satisfaction, he's already got his fuck you money. But Slash, Izzy and Duff don't have fuck you money. They'll go on the road giving the lion's share of the money to Axl just like Joe Walsh and Timothy B. Schmit take a back seat to Don Henley and Glenn Frey. Sure, Henley can work alone. But he can't make that much coin. And as time marches on, Axl's grosses will continue to decline. And everybody needs money. Then what?

Sure, Axl's got Henley beat, he can tour under the band's name. Still...

A public figure's got no upside in picking a fight with a business insider. People have got no idea who Irving Azoff is, and they don't really care. They like GaGa, not Iovine. The person out front is the attraction. And by picking a fight for a paltry sum, Axl actually hurts his career. People go to see the train-wreck once, but how many times will they com back around to see Axl and some nobodies?

Rock and roll is a business. Irving was doing his job. Which he wants to get paid for. He was looking out for Axl Rose's best interests. Isn't that what he's supposed to do?

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Visit the archive: http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/

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I think this guy is kind of out of the context. Did he really understood what happened or he only had a superficial view? He said many bullshits, I'll coment them later, I'm out of time now.

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I think this guy is kind of out of the context. Did he really understood what happened or he only had a superficial view? He said many bullshits, I'll coment them later, I'm out of time now.

I don't agree with everything Bob Lefsetz said here, and you should know, he's a personal friend of Irving Azoff, but he does make a lot of good points.

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I don't agree with everything Bob Lefsetz said here, and you should know, he's a personal friend of Irving Azoff, but he does make a lot of good points.

true, there are some decent points but people have a choice in what they wanna do, and axl's choice is to keep the current band together as guns n roses and im ok with that, i will always miss the old guns but i bet if they even played together there would be no good chemistry between slash and axl onstage which is what most people want

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I think Irving's probably an asshole, but Axl is also probably legititmatly crazy. Was bound to implode sooner or later...

I'm curious to see how this lawsuit will inevetibly and absolutely hold back the current Guns N' Roses. As if they needed another fucking wrench thrown at them. :rolleyes:

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I think Irving's probably an asshole, but Axl is also probably legititmatly crazy. Was bound to implode sooner or later...

This.

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"Among other things, Azoff pulled the VIP ticket packages that were set up for tour dates in Canada resulting in loss of substantial

revenue."

Shit.... and I blamed Axl for this! :fuckyou: Azoff. I waited 20 years for those tickets!! I hope Axl kicks your ass....

Weird Axl would put that in his countersuit - because in the "Axl Chats", he said he was against that sorta thing. Making fans pay to spend time/meet a performer.

He called it "lame."

In fact, maybe some of you should go back and read the Axl chats and the Billboad/Del James interview, because some of the stuff he said then, contradicts what he is saying now in his lawsuit.

SunnDRE has a pretty good point here. Axl did say he would never endorse something like that, and now he's suing someone for it. Lame, Axl?

Irving might want to pull that statement up in court...

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ame='ItsSuchACrimeUKnowItsJAKE' date='19 May 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1274301307' post='2676401']

SunnDRE has a pretty good point here. Axl did say he would never endorse something like that, and now he's suing someone for it. Lame, Axl?

Irving might want to pull that statement up in court...

idk, he might bring it up in court but it doesnt seem to be a crucial part of this court case, hopefully theyll focus on the bigger issues

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Someone sneak a camera into the court. I do find it funny that none of the other members of the tight unit that is Guns N' Roses have any say in this.

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idk, he might bring it up in court but it doesnt seem to be a crucial part of this court case, hopefully theyll focus on the bigger issues

Right, but it doesn't exactly put Axl in the honest and straigtforward light he's going for here, and a judge or jury will see these contradictions as holes both in the case and Axl's character. Small as they may be, they're worth noting.

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Right, but it doesn't exactly put Axl in the honest and straigtforward light he's going for here, and a judge or jury will see these contradictions as holes both in the case and Axl's character. Small as they may be, they're worth noting.

another good point haha, well i hope the judge is a fan of the band otherwise axl is gonna have a hard time

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I love how everyone knows what Axl should have done with his own life. Axl appears to be just as happy as anyone else. We all have problems, Axl is no different.

All he does it go to parties, hang out with hot chicks and perform great music with passion, but this douchenozzlw thinks he knows what Axl "should have done." As if Axl's life is somehow a tradgedy cause he didnt have a reunionwith some guys he doenst like.

lame.

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another good point haha, well i hope the judge is a fan of the band otherwise axl is gonna have a hard time

I think, as usual, a lot of us want to root for Axl, but let's not forget that Irving didn't become as powerful as he is by being an idiot who goes against the law to screw over his clients. Axl could have met him half way with the promotion and marketing, he didnt. So when the judge asks Axl why he never met Azoff half way with anything and Axl replies, "Because I dont vant to do eet." he might have Axl put in a straight jacket on the spot if you catch my drift...

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I think, as usual, a lot of us want to root for Axl, but let's not forget that Irving didn't become as powerful as he is by being an idiot who goes against the law to screw over his clients. Axl could have met him half way with the promotion and marketing, he didnt. So when the judge asks Axl why he never met Azoff half way with anything and Axl replies, "Because I dont vant to do eet." he might have Axl put in a straight jacket on the spot if you catch my drift...

You speak too much truth.

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You speak too much truth.

Haha, I know, I'm working on it in therapy. :D

But seriously, I'd love to see Axl stick it to the man on this one. But, honestly, managing Axl Rose must be one of the most frustrating and maddening jobs on the planet and the fact is, Irving Azoff got Chinese Democracy out which is something every previous manager failed to get Axl to do. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that it was done solely as a, and I quote, "Diabolical plan". It's just too much.

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Haha, I know, I'm working on it in therapy. :D

But seriously, I'd love to see Axl stick it to the man on this one. But, honestly, managing Axl Rose must be one of the most frustrating and maddening jobs on the planet and the fact is, Irving Azoff got Chinese Democracy out which is something every previous manager failed to get Axl to do. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that it was done solely as a, and I quote, "Diabolical plan". It's just too much.

yeah leave it up to axl call this a diabolical plan, maybe it was a plan but its not pure evil

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yeah leave it up to axl call this a diabolical plan, maybe it was a plan but its not pure evil

Exactly. The band wasn't making as much money as was anticipated for Chinese Democracy, so who's he going to blame, himself? Just like when he was loosing face at the end of 2006 when it became abundently clear that he was going to fail to deliver the album as promised that year. Who'd he blame? His manager Merck, and publicly disowned him putting the blame solely on Merck's shoulders. Sound familiar?

Why? BECAUSE AXL NEVER ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. Not for the breakup of the original lineup, not the time it took to deliver CD, not for the cancelled tours, not for lack of promotion...This list can go on but I'll stop there as I think it's pretty clear what's going on.

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Exactly. The band wasn't making as much money as was anticipated for Chinese Democracy, so who's he going to blame, himself? Just like when he was loosing face at the end of 2006 when it became abundently clear that he was going to fail to deliver the album as promised that year. Who'd he blame? His manager Merck, and publicly disowned him putting the blame solely on Merck's shoulders. Sound familiar?

Why? BECAUSE AXL NEVER ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. Not for the breakup of the original lineup, not the time it took to deliver CD, not for the cancelled tours, not for lack of promotion...This list can go on but I'll stop there as I think it's pretty clear what's going on.

you make some good points but the thing you gotta think about is that axl does not think about taking responsibility because he sees everything differently from others, im not trying to defend him because its definitely one of the causes of most of his problems, he just doesnt think too normally haha

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you make some good points but the thing you gotta think about is that axl does not think about taking responsibility because he sees everything differently from others, im not trying to defend him because its definitely one of the causes of most of his problems, he just doesnt think too normally haha

Haha, right but he's spent the better part of the past 15 years in a courtroom because of that mindset of his. :D

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Haha, right but he's spent the better part of the past 15 years in a courtroom because of that mindset of his. :D

thank god we at least got chinese democracy out at this point lol

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Yes, you have to remember - Axl was in hiding for months and months before and after the album came out.

He would not even issue a P.R. or confirm that the album was arriving.

'Shackler's Revenge' and 'If the World' were included in Rock Band 2 and Body of Lies - still no word from Axl.

Any one who knows anything about Axl knows that this counter-suit is silly.

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Yes, you have to remember - Axl was in hiding for months and months before and after the album came out.

He would not even issue a P.R. or confirm that the album was arriving.

'Shackler's Revenge' and 'If the World' were included in Rock Band 2 and Body of Lies - still no word from Axl.

Any one who knows anything about Axl knows that this counter-suit is silly.

Then again, if they were touring without management, I can understand why Azoff wouldn't get any money from that.

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The man might be friends with Azoff but he makes some excellent points.....In business you have to pick your battles and IMHO Axl picked badly in this case.

You have Axl, who has not made many friends in the business part of the industry or with law enforcment, in general trying to fight a man who runs arguably the most powerful organization in the entertainment business, TM/LN, who has powerful friends and contacts in the business and the government...

The man was able to make the TM/LN merger happen with the Dept. of Justice which is a blatant monopoly.....Who do you think is going to win if this goes to court?

If Axl was smart he would settle with this guy and move on...in the end he will lose more than money if he doesn't.......Just my 2 cents

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ame='ItsSuchACrimeUKnowItsJAKE' date='19 May 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1274301307' post='2676401']

SunnDRE has a pretty good point here. Axl did say he would never endorse something like that, and now he's suing someone for it. Lame, Axl?

Irving might want to pull that statement up in court...

VIP tickets don't always mean or include a meet and greet. Sometimes it just means a pre-party before the concert in a location near or in the venue, and a post party after the concert and premium seating. George Michael had VIP tickets available for his concerts but did not include a meet and greet whatsoever.

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